Re: [eGroupWare-users] eGroupware20 and the future of eGroupWare

Ralf_Becker_6 2007-12-01 20:52:49 UTC #1

Hi Lars,

I did NOT reject all of what you and Conny suggested in terms of future
development.

Please remember after the meeting failed, we both wanted to publish a
list of things we already agreed on (autoloading, php5.1 interfaces,
shared interfaces across applications, …).

I dont know why that “common ground” was never published. I still stand
to what we talked there and in fact using it in my new developments, eg.
if you look at the new admin stuff im working on right now.

The only thing I completely reject is that dogma, of having no backward
compatibility and not allowing existing apps to run in eGroupware20.

I was also willing to help rewriting eTemplate to use extjs. I only told
you I had already plans for the next release (admin rewrite and the new
vfs / document management), so I can not get a port of eTemplate to use
extjs done directly for the next release.

Anyway I do not understand why we’re discussing that technical aspects
on the user-list. Everyone is welcome to follow technical discussions on
the developer list (eg. via nabble or by subscribing to it).

Ralf

Lars Kneschke schrieb:

“Ralf Becker” RalfBecker@outdoor-training.de schrieb:

Unfortunately that leaves, beside joining your side and ditching my
current projects, only the other possibilities I mentioned before:

b) sit and wait 'til you’re ready (if you dont want to work for the
trashbin in the meantime)

c) reject eGroupware20 in it’s current form and dogma

I also mentioned more about the downsides of b) for the project as such
in my original mail.
Hello Ralf!

I would never expect, that you drop all the work you have done in the past.
I’m aware of this and I respect this.

But you left us no other choice, than starting from scratch.

We sat together, to talk about the future development goals of eGroupWare.
We talked about the ideas of Cornelius and me, how we like to improve
eGroupWare in the future. You rejected any of our ideas. You did not left
any room to bring in our ideas into the current eGroupWare codebase.

Now we created a new codebase outside of the current codebase to show our
concepts and to have something to talk about and now you reject our work
again, because it is not compatible with your current work. It’s not
compatible with your work, because you refused to work together with us. Not
because we refused to work together with you.

First you refused all of our requests to improve the current codebase and
now you refuse our work against because we did not improve the current
codebase.

That’s not easy to solve for us…

–
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net

E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@metaways.de
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
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–
Ralf Becker
eGroupWare Training & Support ==> http://www.egroupware-support.de
Outdoor Unlimited Training GmbH [www.outdoor-training.de]
Handelsregister HRB Kaiserslautern 3587
Geschäftsführer Birgit und Ralf Becker
Leibnizstr. 17, 67663 Kaiserslautern, Germany
Telefon +49 (0)631 31657-0

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Milosch 2007-12-04 19:54:05 UTC #2

Here is my opinion on the whole idea of egroupware’s progress to the next major version:

egroupware is a php web-based server application. It has other technologies involved for backend and display code, but it is still essentially php and (insert {web}server here).

egroupware’s internal operation or middleware code shall remain as php within this project. We should work to continue to provide clear separation between backend, middle, and frontend interfaces. This allows for alternative client interfaces using ajax, javascript, xml-rpc, soap, html, text, or whatever you like.

I do not accept in any case that internal work involving api functions be moved from the middle to any client interface. So long as there is a separation between what needs to function at the server level and what is better suited to the frontend, then we should have no argument about what constitutes egroupware.

If the api is not acceptable to you, and there is a desire to remake egroupware from scratch, then I would consider that not as an upgrade but at best as a parallel project. It is not at all the same as calling it the next version of egroupware. We should not be confused about this.

egroupware, in addition, is about it’s function for the basic 4 applications. I feel that our legacy code does provide this function, and that our developer base is responsible for it being as good as it is. Take that however you like. What I am saying is there is value in the current work being done. There is also value in rewriting it for better performance. But creating a project which has only functional similarities from the client end is not a next version. It is an entirely new application.

Therefore, I would request that we not confuse the project, its users, nor the press by calling this egroupware2 or whatever. Even if it is to remain as part of the project, I think it needs to be named according to what it purports to be and not what the user will see. If it is based on the function and not necessarily the code then it isn’t egroupware. It is groupware by another name.

Ralf Becker-3:

Hi Lars,

I did NOT reject all of what you and Conny suggested in terms of future
development.

Please remember after the meeting failed, we both wanted to publish a
list of things we already agreed on (autoloading, php5.1 interfaces,
shared interfaces across applications, …).

I dont know why that “common ground” was never published. I still stand
to what we talked there and in fact using it in my new developments, eg.
if you look at the new admin stuff im working on right now.

The only thing I completely reject is that dogma, of having no backward
compatibility and not allowing existing apps to run in eGroupware20.

I was also willing to help rewriting eTemplate to use extjs. I only told
you I had already plans for the next release (admin rewrite and the new
vfs / document management), so I can not get a port of eTemplate to use
extjs done directly for the next release.

Anyway I do not understand why we’re discussing that technical aspects
on the user-list. Everyone is welcome to follow technical discussions on
the developer list (eg. via nabble or by subscribing to it).

Ralf

Lars Kneschke schrieb:

“Ralf Becker” RalfBecker@outdoor-training.de schrieb:

Unfortunately that leaves, beside joining your side and ditching my
current projects, only the other possibilities I mentioned before:

b) sit and wait 'til you’re ready (if you dont want to work for the
trashbin in the meantime)

c) reject eGroupware20 in it’s current form and dogma

I also mentioned more about the downsides of b) for the project as such
in my original mail.
Hello Ralf!

I would never expect, that you drop all the work you have done in the past.
I’m aware of this and I respect this.

But you left us no other choice, than starting from scratch.

We sat together, to talk about the future development goals of eGroupWare.
We talked about the ideas of Cornelius and me, how we like to improve
eGroupWare in the future. You rejected any of our ideas. You did not left
any room to bring in our ideas into the current eGroupWare codebase.

Now we created a new codebase outside of the current codebase to show our
concepts and to have something to talk about and now you reject our work
again, because it is not compatible with your current work. It’s not
compatible with your work, because you refused to work together with us. Not
because we refused to work together with you.

First you refused all of our requests to improve the current codebase and
now you refuse our work against because we did not improve the current
codebase.

That’s not easy to solve for us…

–
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net

E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@metaways.de
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele

SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper
from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going
mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future.
http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4

eGroupWare-users mailing list
eGroupWare-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-users

–
Ralf Becker
eGroupWare Training & Support ==> http://www.egroupware-support.de
Outdoor Unlimited Training GmbH [www.outdoor-training.de]
Handelsregister HRB Kaiserslautern 3587
Geschäftsführer Birgit und Ralf Becker
Leibnizstr. 17, 67663 Kaiserslautern, Germany
Telefon +49 (0)631 31657-0

SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper
from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going
mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future.
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Lars_Kneschke-2 2007-12-06 17:12:45 UTC #3

“Milosch” milos@groupwhere.org schrieb:

Hello Milosch!

I do not accept in any case that internal work involving api functions be
moved from the middle to any client interface.
Did you find a place in our new code, where we did this?

If the api is not acceptable to you, and there is a desire to remake
egroupware from scratch, then I would consider that not as an upgrade but
at
best as a parallel project.
There is no technical reason to not have a eGW 1.4 compatibility layer. It
just makes no sense to do this currently. We already stated this multiple
times(at least on the german list).

Please also keep in mind that Ralf/Nigel refused to work together with
us(Cornelius and me) before we hired Cornelius. Cornelius and me have been
independent of each other at the last meeting, to talk about how we can
improve the current codebase.

As Ralf/Nigel refused all of our request how to change the current codebase,
we had no other chance then starting from scratch. We will provide a second
concept, how eGroupWare can look like in the future. As Ralf/Nigel,
Cornelius and me can not find a common ground, the project needs to decide
about it. To be able to decide, we need to provide a proof of concept. When
the project decides to make use of our codebase we can add the compatibility
layer. If the project decides against, we need to fork. But that’s not our
intention.

–
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare 2.0 demo: http://www.egroupware20.org/demo
eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net

E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@metaways.de
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele

eGroupWare-developers mailing list
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Milosch 2007-12-06 17:20:46 UTC #4

OK. You’ll have to excuse my coming into this late. But, I am here now I look forward to a better discussion in the next few days and weeks.

Lars Kneschke-2:

“Milosch” milos@groupwhere.org schrieb:

Hello Milosch!

I do not accept in any case that internal work involving api functions be
moved from the middle to any client interface.
Did you find a place in our new code, where we did this?

If the api is not acceptable to you, and there is a desire to remake
egroupware from scratch, then I would consider that not as an upgrade but
at
best as a parallel project.
There is no technical reason to not have a eGW 1.4 compatibility layer. It
just makes no sense to do this currently. We already stated this multiple
times(at least on the german list).

Please also keep in mind that Ralf/Nigel refused to work together with
us(Cornelius and me) before we hired Cornelius. Cornelius and me have been
independent of each other at the last meeting, to talk about how we can
improve the current codebase.

As Ralf/Nigel refused all of our request how to change the current codebase,
we had no other chance then starting from scratch. We will provide a second
concept, how eGroupWare can look like in the future. As Ralf/Nigel,
Cornelius and me can not find a common ground, the project needs to decide
about it. To be able to decide, we need to provide a proof of concept. When
the project decides to make use of our codebase we can add the compatibility
layer. If the project decides against, we need to fork. But that’s not our
intention.

–
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare 2.0 demo: http://www.egroupware20.org/demo
eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net

E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@metaways.de
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele

SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper
from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going
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Ralf_Becker_6 2007-12-06 17:33:56 UTC #5

Hi Lars,

Lars Kneschke schrieb:

Please also keep in mind that Ralf/Nigel refused to work together with
us(Cornelius and me) before we hired Cornelius. Cornelius and me have been
independent of each other at the last meeting, to talk about how we can
improve the current codebase.

I grant everyone his own opinion, but this is not true in the extend you
express it here.

As I state in an earlier mail to the list: We even agreed on a lot of
points in the discussion in Kirschheimbolanden. Directly after you and
Conny left it, we even agreed to publish the points we found an agreement.

I dont know why it was never published. I’m still standing to the things
we agreed (php5.1, autoloading, Exceptions, shared interfaces across
apps, …) and I’m using them in my current work (on the current codebase).

Maybe we should start with publishing the things we agreed on, if you
and Conny still stand to it. Then we can re-start the discussion about
the things we found no agreement so far.

Ralf

Ralf Becker
eGroupWare Training & Support ==> http://www.egroupware-support.de
Outdoor Unlimited Training GmbH [www.outdoor-training.de]
Handelsregister HRB Kaiserslautern 3587
Geschäftsführer Birgit und Ralf Becker
Leibnizstr. 17, 67663 Kaiserslautern, Germany
Telefon +49 (0)631 31657-0

eGroupWare-developers mailing list
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https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-developers

Lars_Kneschke-2 2007-12-07 13:27:17 UTC #6

“Ralf Becker” RalfBecker@outdoor-training.de schrieb:

I grant everyone his own opinion, but this is not true in the extend you
express it here.

As I state in an earlier mail to the list: We even agreed on a lot of
points in the discussion in Kirschheimbolanden. Directly after you and
Conny left it, we even agreed to publish the points we found an agreement.

I dont know why it was never published. I’m still standing to the things
we agreed (php5.1, autoloading, Exceptions, shared interfaces across
apps, …) and I’m using them in my current work (on the current
codebase).

Maybe we should start with publishing the things we agreed on, if you
and Conny still stand to it. Then we can re-start the discussion about
the things we found no agreement so far.

Hello Ralf!

I’m irritated once again. Because last time you stated that can remember
this meeting very well.

Just to summarize it shortly. At the meeting has been Nigel Vickers from
Stylite, you(business partner of Stylite), Cornelius(only himself) and
I(from Metaways). Anything we decided got documented on Nigels laptop, as
the laptop was connected to the beamer. As it was Nigel’s laptop and as
Nigel is a native english speaker, we decided that he will provide the
summary of the meeting.
I also asked you 2 months later, if Nigel is still about to post the
summary.
Please don’t ask us why there is no summary. Please ask your business
partner when we can expect the summary. It should be still on his laptop.

Cornelius and I got massively verbally abused by Nigel(your business
partner) for about 1,5 days. We didn’t leave the meeting after 2 hours,
because we wanted to find a common ground. But calling PHP 5.1, exceptions
and shared interfaces a common ground is really funny. That’s such a basic
standard, that I thought we didn’t need to talk about it.

The really important thing, where we needed to find a common ground, was how
we can work together in the project. And Nigel and you stated, that
Cornelius and I can not expect you to consider our requests. This makes it
really hard for us, to innovate inside the project.

–
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare 2.0 demo: http://www.egroupware20.org/demo
eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net

E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@metaways.de
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
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