Vote about which codeline should use the name "eGroupWare"

Ralf_Becker_6 2007-12-12 20:08:57 UTC #1

We, the admins of the eGroupWare project, think the answers from Lars
and Conny to our prior statement do not settle the issue by coming to a
real decision, but rather by showing only the will to continue with the
current situation.

We could now force by admin decision one of the alternatives of the
statement. But, we think that for a decision of this magnitude that this
should be decided by a vote of the project members instead.

We also think this vote has to be, in the best interest of the project,
done as quickly as possible, as the current situation is eroding the
project, slowing down the development and unsettling our users.
We don’t think that waiting for a “proof of concept” to be finished
makes any sense, as our problem is not with the written or future code,
but with the basic approach, its dogma and magnitude.

Therefore, we call upon the members of the eGroupWare project for a vote
on the following:

YES, if you are in favor of: The existing codeline keeping the name
"eGroupWare" and continuing to evolve the existing codebase with it’s
broad range of applications. The new codeline has to form a new project
under a new name as well as discontinuing the use of our mailing lists
for purposes of advertising their new code, petitioning developers, etc.

NO, if you are in favor of: Lars & Conny’s new codeline using the name
"eGroupWare" for their new development. The existing codeline would be
forked into a new project (though fork is the wrong word as they would
be the only ones using and supporting the existing code).

According to our constitution, the vote must be at least one week after
the vote has been announced on the mailing list.

We ask for your votes on 20th December 2007 (full day UTC time).

We suggest that either Peter Vratny or Oscar Manuel Gómez Senovilla act
as “election master”, who will announce the full formalities, collect
and count the votes and announce the result.

Your eGroupWare admins

Ralf Becker, Pim Snel, Miles Lott

SF.Net email is sponsored by:
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ManfredU 2007-12-14 12:14:24 UTC #2

[…]

Therefore, we call upon the members of the eGroupWare project for a
vote on the following:

YES, if you are in favor of: The existing codeline keeping the name
"eGroupWare"

No vote about that needed: Nobody suggested anything else.

and continuing to evolve the existing codebase with it’s
broad range of applications.

No vote about that needed: Nobody suggested that the current should be
abandoned.

The new codeline has to form a new
project under a new name

No vote about that needed: They are already using a new name.

as well as discontinuing the use of our
mailing lists for purposes of advertising their new code, petitioning
developers, etc.

Disagreement here, so voting could make sense.

NO, if you are in favor of: Lars & Conny’s new codeline using the
name “eGroupWare” for their new development.

No vote about that needed: They are already using a different name.

The existing codeline
would be forked into a new project (though fork is the wrong word as
they would be the only ones using and supporting the existing code).

No vote about that needed: Nobody suggested such a nonsense.

So in reality the vote seems to be about the question if Lars and Conny
should continue to be allowed to post about their new development on
the projects mailing lists.

Why isn’t the vote worded like that? Why is it phrased in such a
misleading way and so that the only answers can be YES or NULL because
NO is not an option for anybody?

Or what did I get wrong?

Manfred

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Birgit_Becker_Outdoo 2007-12-14 21:31:48 UTC #3

Hello all developer and user of eGroupWare,

for all, who don’t know me, i’d like to introduce myself:
Birgit Becker

I’m working since 3 Years for the project egroupWare,
not as developer but für the user manual. I’ve written more or less the
whole (approx. 90%) german user manual. Our company payed for a
translation into english and we are updating the whole english manual at
the moment. The Manual is available for every user direct in eGroupWare.
In my normal work life i’m business manager and trainer for
teamdevelopment and Leadership for many companys Since 2-3 years we also
offer service (training, support and consulting) for eGroupWare - thats
not ment as advertising, it should only show my bachground!!!

I’ve kept out of the discussion about Tine20 and egroupWare knowingly,
but now i thing it’s time to state a few things:

For me eGroupWare is a broad lineup of applications and adaptability,
which is much more than 4 core-applications. As Lars mentioned often,
this will happen in the future, but this will take some time since it is
available. applications and adaptability means for me things like
sitemgr, manual, multi-language, eTemplate and Sync - for sure there is
capability for many improvement in eGroupWare!
As a non-program developer ist hard to estimate, if the code of
eGroupWare is as bad and outdated as Lars and Conny state several times
on there website and on the lists. But as an User, administarter and
Support-partner of many eGroupWare-sytems i can say, it’s not so bad,
since it works very well for many companys and users. Many companys
trust on eGroupWare and integrate it into there business startegy.
For that reason it’s difficult to understand, that necessary to mess up
everything!!!, especially when a interim sulution is possible by
substitude piecewise (don’t know if this is the right word)of the old
code, as Ralf demonstraded in the last years. Therefore he rewrite
different applications, but nobody was forced to give up all existing
applications with all customization or adaptions for his company, to be
able to participate on new features …
Lars and Conny stated often, we don’t had a chance to make an other
decision than "rewrite everything, incl. new database-schema, because
Ralf did’nt follow there ideas. Based on my 10 years experience as a
trainer, i like to say: to a conflict and a compromise both sites are
responsible. This means beeing concret: I think Lars oversimplify the
situation by blaming only Ralf being responsible for there dicision of
the “complete rewrite”. Yes Ralf rejected to change eTemplate according
to the ideas of Lars and Conny in the next time, but he has as many
right to decide to what he will/can engage. Not to follow the “complete
rewrite” don’t suite to his image of his previous and future work of
eGroupWare. On the other hand decided Lars and Conny that they will not
contribute to the existing codeline 1.4 or 1.5, thats up to them, thats
there right!!! But the right to decide for what someone engage should
ment to be for both sides!!!
For a compromis both sides needed to contribute, so i request Lars and
Conny provocative, to do one step in direction of the eGroupWare
project: make it directly possible that the existing applications of
eGroupWare can be also used in the future.
It’s been indicated, that thw vote is ment to push Lars and Conny out
of the project. I want to say i like Conny personaly and it would be a
pity if someone come to the conclusion that the vote will push them out!
The only effect of a vote “YES” will be, that all issues about Tine20
will be handeled on there mailing-list. And Tine20 will not state in
public or press that they are the future of eGroupWare.
I’d like to to say i appreciate the vote aligned with the hope for
finding time for everyone to do daly business and engagement for
eGroupWare - the situation at the moment is from my point of few no
longer endurable.

Greeting to all developer and user

Birgit

Ralf Becker schrieb:

We, the admins of the eGroupWare project, think the answers from Lars
and Conny to our prior statement do not settle the issue by coming to a
real decision, but rather by showing only the will to continue with the
current situation.

We could now force by admin decision one of the alternatives of the
statement. But, we think that for a decision of this magnitude that this
should be decided by a vote of the project members instead.

We also think this vote has to be, in the best interest of the project,
done as quickly as possible, as the current situation is eroding the
project, slowing down the development and unsettling our users.
We don’t think that waiting for a “proof of concept” to be finished
makes any sense, as our problem is not with the written or future code,
but with the basic approach, its dogma and magnitude.

Therefore, we call upon the members of the eGroupWare project for a vote
on the following:

YES, if you are in favor of: The existing codeline keeping the name
"eGroupWare" and continuing to evolve the existing codebase with it’s
broad range of applications. The new codeline has to form a new project
under a new name as well as discontinuing the use of our mailing lists
for purposes of advertising their new code, petitioning developers, etc.

NO, if you are in favor of: Lars & Conny’s new codeline using the name
"eGroupWare" for their new development. The existing codeline would be
forked into a new project (though fork is the wrong word as they would
be the only ones using and supporting the existing code).

According to our constitution, the vote must be at least one week after
the vote has been announced on the mailing list.

We ask for your votes on 20th December 2007 (full day UTC time).

We suggest that either Peter Vratny or Oscar Manuel Gómez Senovilla act
as “election master”, who will announce the full formalities, collect
and count the votes and announce the result.

Your eGroupWare admins

Ralf Becker, Pim Snel, Miles Lott

SF.Net email is sponsored by:
Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
It’s the best place to buy or sell services
for just about anything Open Source.
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace

eGroupWare-core mailing list
eGroupWare-core@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core

–

Birgit Becker
OUTDOOR UNLIMITED Training GmbH
Leibnizstraße 17
D-67663 Kaiserslautern

Telefon 0631 / 31657-0
Telefax 0631 / 3165726
Mobil 0170 / 3147833

EMail BirgitBecker@outdoor-training.de

Outdoor Training ==> www.outdoor-training.de
eGroupWare Support ==> www.egroupware-support.eu

Geschäftsführer: Ralf und Birgit Becker
Handelregister HRB 3587

eGroupWare-developers mailing list
eGroupWare-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-developers

Birgit_Becker_Outdoo 2007-12-14 21:39:30 UTC #4

Hello all developer and user of eGroupWare,

for all, who don’t know me, i’d like to introduce myself:
Birgit Becker

I’ve kept out of the discussion about Tine20 and egroupWare knowingly,
but now i thing it’s time to state a few things:

For me eGroupWare is a broad lineup of applications and adaptability,
which is much more than 4 core-applications. As Lars mentioned often,
this will happen in the future, but this will take some time since it is
available. applications and adaptability means for me things like
sitemgr, manual, multi-language, eTemplate and Sync - for sure there is
capability for many improvement in eGroupWare!
As a non-program developer ist hard to estimate, if the code of
eGroupWare is as bad and outdated as Lars and Conny state several times
on there website and on the lists. But as an User, administarter and
Support-partner of many eGroupWare-sytems i can say, it’s not so bad,
since it works very well for many companys and users. Many companys
trust on eGroupWare and integrate it into there business startegy.
For that reason it’s difficult to understand, that necessary to mess up
everything!!!, especially when a interim sulution is possible by
substitude piecewise (don’t know if this is the right word)of the old
code, as Ralf demonstraded in the last years. Therefore he rewrite
different applications, but nobody was forced to give up all existing
applications with all customization or adaptions for his company, to be
able to participate on new features …
Lars and Conny stated often, we don’t had a chance to make an other
decision than "rewrite everything, incl. new database-schema, because
Ralf did’nt follow there ideas. Based on my 10 years experience as a
trainer, i like to say: to a conflict and a compromise both sites are
responsible. This means beeing concret: I think Lars oversimplify the
situation by blaming only Ralf being responsible for there dicision of
the “complete rewrite”. Yes Ralf rejected to change eTemplate according
to the ideas of Lars and Conny in the next time, but he has as many
right to decide to what he will/can engage. Not to follow the “complete
rewrite” don’t suite to his image of his previous and future work of
eGroupWare. On the other hand decided Lars and Conny that they will not
contribute to the existing codeline 1.4 or 1.5, thats up to them, thats
there right!!! But the right to decide for what someone engage should
ment to be for both sides!!!
For a compromis both sides needed to contribute, so i request Lars and
Conny provocative, to do one step in direction of the eGroupWare
project: make it directly possible that the existing applications of
eGroupWare can be also used in the future.
It’s been indicated, that thw vote is ment to push Lars and Conny out
of the project. I want to say i like Conny personaly and it would be a
pity if someone come to the conclusion that the vote will push them out!
The only effect of a vote “YES” will be, that all issues about Tine20
will be handeled on there mailing-list. And Tine20 will not state in
public or press that they are the future of eGroupWare.
I’d like to to say i appreciate the vote aligned with the hope for
finding time for everyone to do daly business and engagement for
eGroupWare - the situation at the moment is from my point of few no
longer endurable.

Greeting to all developer and user

Birgit

Ralf Becker schrieb:

We, the admins of the eGroupWare project, think the answers from Lars
and Conny to our prior statement do not settle the issue by coming to a
real decision, but rather by showing only the will to continue with the
current situation.

We could now force by admin decision one of the alternatives of the
statement. But, we think that for a decision of this magnitude that this
should be decided by a vote of the project members instead.

We also think this vote has to be, in the best interest of the project,
done as quickly as possible, as the current situation is eroding the
project, slowing down the development and unsettling our users.
We don’t think that waiting for a “proof of concept” to be finished
makes any sense, as our problem is not with the written or future code,
but with the basic approach, its dogma and magnitude.

Therefore, we call upon the members of the eGroupWare project for a vote
on the following:

YES, if you are in favor of: The existing codeline keeping the name
"eGroupWare" and continuing to evolve the existing codebase with it’s
broad range of applications. The new codeline has to form a new project
under a new name as well as discontinuing the use of our mailing lists
for purposes of advertising their new code, petitioning developers, etc.

NO, if you are in favor of: Lars & Conny’s new codeline using the name
"eGroupWare" for their new development. The existing codeline would be
forked into a new project (though fork is the wrong word as they would
be the only ones using and supporting the existing code).

According to our constitution, the vote must be at least one week after
the vote has been announced on the mailing list.

We ask for your votes on 20th December 2007 (full day UTC time).

We suggest that either Peter Vratny or Oscar Manuel Gómez Senovilla act
as “election master”, who will announce the full formalities, collect
and count the votes and announce the result.

Your eGroupWare admins

Ralf Becker, Pim Snel, Miles Lott

SF.Net email is sponsored by:
Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
It’s the best place to buy or sell services
for just about anything Open Source.
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace

eGroupWare-core mailing list
eGroupWare-core@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core

–

Birgit Becker
OUTDOOR UNLIMITED Training GmbH
Leibnizstraße 17
D-67663 Kaiserslautern

Telefon 0631 / 31657-0
Telefax 0631 / 3165726
Mobil 0170 / 3147833

EMail BirgitBecker@outdoor-training.de

Outdoor Training ==> www.outdoor-training.de
eGroupWare Support ==> www.egroupware-support.eu

Geschäftsführer: Ralf und Birgit Becker
Handelregister HRB 3587

eGroupWare-developers mailing list
eGroupWare-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-developers